istheretruth Says:

Jul 16, 2008 - look at it like this....the first rocket that we were able to get out of the atmosphere, we created it, by trial and error until we finally designed it to accomplish it goal. we had limitations and boundaries but we didn't use those limitations and boundaries as part of the design, we side stepped them by realizing them and designing it with them in mind.

istheretruth Says:

Jul 16, 2008 - "I'm not sure quite how you can assert that god could create a universe with no properties and still create life." no, I meant an omnipotent god, by the definition that we use.

noelplum99 Says:

Jul 16, 2008 - ofc all the dials could be fixed by the same naturalistic process but this would negate using the 'postion of the dials' as an argument for gods existence (not an argument you or I are making but, i thought, an argument we are discussing which many christians make. ...'I meant an omnipotent god by the definition that we use'..... and that would be the same omnipotent god I asserted wouldn't need billions of trillions of stars to polulate one planet!

noelplum99 Says:

Jul 16, 2008 - I realise both these potentially come unstuck once you start to conjecture pre-existing limitations on god but as I say again, I'm not arguing against whatever branch od deism you follow but against general christian explanations

istheretruth Says:

Jul 16, 2008 - I'm not sure that you could label me deist, as I am not totally sure that god cannot be a personal god.

istheretruth Says:

Jul 16, 2008 - "and that would be the same omnipotent god I asserted wouldn't need billions of trillions of stars to polulate one planet!" agreed, my question is of the meaning of omnipotent....but there are other possibilities, and one of them may actually be that god is omnipotent by our definition and has an actual reason for creating by arbitrary means,the very universe that we see.

noelplum99 Says:

Jul 16, 2008 - He may have an arbitrary reason..... but wasnt that the very question I was asking Bigjerre: basically, what would that arbitrary reason be? Why would he do it?

istheretruth Says:

Jul 16, 2008 - "I assume you believe time pre-existed our universe?" not universal time, I think that it is finite... infinite times contradict human logic, they cannot be measured. I'm sure that you've heard the old...if a tell you I will give you a beer in an infinite amount of time, when will I give you that beer..answer = never/ could an infinite amount of time passed before this moment...the answer is simple...no, if it had we would have never reached this moment...time seems to be finite.

istheretruth Says:

Jul 16, 2008 - well I thought your question was, why not just create a single solar system, but I say why stop there...why not a single planet with 300,000 miles of space surrounding it...why not go ahead and create on galaxy? this could go on and on... why Picasso paint "Les Demoiselles d'Avignon" in the fashion that he did. He could have done so many other things with that painting, but for arbitrary reasons...he made it like he did!!

istheretruth Says:

Jul 16, 2008 - so either a time dimension outside of our time dimension exists, and causes ours to exist.....or something in our universe doesn't require time to exist and move - energy, light

noelplum99 Says:

Jul 16, 2008 - That's not much of an answer more of an evasion. The fact is that all of the suggestions you made their make more sense, if your intention is to populate just one planet (with your special creations), than to create a universe the size it is. You mae a car factory analogy earlier. Would you see much logic if I created trillions of car plants just to make half a dozen cars at one of those factories? If there is any logic to such a created universe it lies well outside our present bounds imo

istheretruth Says:

Jul 16, 2008 - "Would you see much logic if I created trillions of car plants just to make half a dozen cars at one of those factories?" but isn't this assuming that the universe is a life factory? why does all of what the universe has, need to be something that causes life? like I said. consider the human brain/mind....how much do you think that the human mind would thrive in a single solar system......

istheretruth Says:

Jul 16, 2008 - an expanding universe creates a horizon for humanity. a horizon that we no doubt wish we could catch, but most of us know that we can't!!! it provides a bit of mental balance IMO

istheretruth Says:

Jul 16, 2008 - I call it "video game logic" make a game in which there are no variable, no mysteries, or even few variable and mysteries.... how popular do you think that video game would be? this is a good barometer of what the human mind requires to thrive.

noelplum99 Says:

Jul 16, 2008 - I personally don't assume any of the universe is set up as a 'life factory' but then I'm not arguing against myself (and I'm not really arguing against you). This is a stimulating conversation and yet I get the feeling that every point I make you answer as if it were aimed at your worldview when it really isn't at all: your worldview is light years from Bigjerre and his kind and much of what you say I'm in total agreement with. This means I'm agreeing with you but having to constantly put...

noelplum99 Says:

Jul 16, 2008 - forward both my argument and an abrahamic counter which is a bit off putting hehe!!

noelplum99 Says:

Jul 16, 2008 - Well on the horizon thing..... I read an article not two weeks ago where they estimated, given the distribution pattern in the visible universe, that the universe OUTSIDE that which we can see must be at least 10,000 times the zone visible from earth. This is all very speculative.......but if true bloody wasteful in terms of providing some mental 'eye candy'!!

noelplum99 Says:

Jul 16, 2008 - With regard to the video game thing, if you weant to make space more appealing to me fill it with naked women and I'll bag myself a telescope tomorrow ready for some truly fulfilling nights viewing!!

istheretruth Says:

Jul 16, 2008 - lmao

istheretruth Says:

Jul 16, 2008 - an omnipotent being would likely need nothing, so if it did decide to create, it may well be one of nearly any type of creation. maybe it would be a small creation, maybe the universe is small as we don't really have much of a reference point except ourselves. I don't think the size of the universe, or even the amount of matter or separated units of matter, stars, planets, galaxies...... would really be able to be used as evidence for or against god.

istheretruth Says:

Jul 16, 2008 - only the apparent information that was apparently present as it unfolded.

someonesperson Says:

Jul 27, 2008 - well, after listening to you answer all those questions, I have concluded that you are exceptionally stupid.

bigore1979 Says:

Aug 17, 2008 - Well, 95% - 99% of all the smartest people believe in evolution, so my word to all my fellow atheists, don't be ashamed of yourself, even God would understand. Therefor, the genome of the chimps ARE compared fully with humans. i got 3 words after these results. YOU ARE WRONG. Evolution is a fact, the world is billions of years old and YES, we have the same ancestor as the chimp. ERV's and Chromosome II is your undeniable proof.

fk4cannibals Says:

Aug 19, 2008 - HA! Other planets are here to show "how awsome Earth is"!!!!!!!!! This isn't even offensive, just fucking hilarious

mindrawl Says:

Sep 8, 2008 - Does that worry anyone that god needs a playground?